I sometimes chuckle that most of the cool Lexuses are now Priuses under the hood!
But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids are one of those things that I can say I’ve completely changed my mind about. I used to dislike the idea of hybrids, because I assumed that the overall system complexity must be higher than either an ICE, or an EV. And I’m a sucker for simple systems, so I thought it’s either EV, or nothing.
Then I looked into how hybrids work. Specifically Toyota hybrids. And came away totally amazed. It’s an amazing system, and much simpler than a traditional ICE car. It doesn’t really have a gearbox, or a clutch, or a starter. The engine is a normal atmospheric engine, so no turbines, overcompression, and the issues that come with it. Furthermore, the engine is typically configured to use the Atkinson cycle, which puts less stress on it. And, the engine has a chain drive, so no belts to change, and by design gets stressed a lot less than in a traditional ICE, because the stop-start load is carried by the electric motor. Also, it can’t really have trouble starting in cold weather, much like an EV. All of that boils down to crazy reliability.
I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Other companies have hybrids that are liable to my original concerns about massively increased complexity. As an example, VW hybrids have an electric motor within their DSG gearbox. So you have all the complexity of their modern ICEs (turbines, DSG, whatnot) plus additional hybrid related complexity.
The Prius system is an excellent design, but as someone that loves driving, it just feels and drives awful- little tactile or audible feedback on any of the controls, and really unresponsive to inputs- arguably dangerously so. My regular daily driver is an old Porsche Boxster, and by comparison the Prius feels like I’m driving a dishwasher or playing a cheap arcade game- it will get you there reliably but it’s just not any fun. Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving. My sister has an Audi A3 e-tron hybrid (basically an upscale VW Golf) that is extremely fun to drive, but also a very complex drivetrain and engine.
I think a pure EV with a small range extender not connected to the drivetrain mechanically- like the BMW i3 REX is the way to go. It’s even simpler and lighter than the Prius system, allowing for a much larger battery and more powerful electric motor.
> Life is too short for me not to enjoy the time I have to spend driving.
Or, you could reengineer your too-short life so you waste less time driving.
It’s fine if you like driving and want to have a nice car - connoisseurs abound in all fields. But for 99% of people it’s not an issue worth optimizing for.
That’s actually part of it for me- I often work from home and have very little required driving- so I do mostly see driving as a recreational activity. If I’m going to visit a remote beach or mountain lake for fun on the weekend, I want the drive down a long winding road to be fun also.
I honestly never quite understood this perspective or why it's so popular... in general I try to always find ways to do normal life things a little weird, or make it a little more challenging, fun, and memorable- and try to break up the routine drudgery. Even just getting groceries can be a fun adventure with my kid if we put the top down on the Porsche, play some music we love, and maybe go to a weird store that targets a different culture, or has weird surplus/unsold items.
Doing things 'weird' usually makes them cheaper and less crowded/faster as well- as a result of less demand.
A significant chunk of the crowd here is very anti-car (to varying degrees), so I wouldn’t expect much sympathy if you’re the type of person that enjoys driving. I’d cut your losses in trying to argue your point…and go enjoy driving your car!
As somewhat of an old timer (turning 43), I remember the techie population seemed to overlap a lot with the car enthusiast population a long time ago. Nearly everyone at my first job (small startup) was a car nerd. A lot of engineering and tech goes into cars after all.
Somewhere along the way a lot of techies became very anti-car.
Cars have a lot of unpriced externalities. I see them as a necessary evil. I'd rather future generations had less pollution and more natural resources to enjoy.
I feel the same as you about the awful externalities, but doing it anyway and refusing to enjoy it as 'penance' just isn't how I would want to deal with that. I really love driving, love the freedom of exploring things in cars, and love working on and fixing them. Instead, I work on sustainable biofuel tech- and even as a hobby use and test it out in my own vehicles.
Props to you for exploring some ways of mitigating the damage of your hobbies. I prefer EVs despite their increased road wear (at least compared to vehicles that haven't been super sized).
Having driven a lot in my youth, it's just not something I enjoy regardless. I'd rather spend the time and resources on other things. Even taking a longer bike ride to the store is preferred because it's exercise, almost everyone on the trail nods or waves back, and I know my choice is better for everyone in the community.
I also love cycling and engineless sailing- and see cycling as more practical transport around town, and cars for long distance recreational trips. In my lifetime I have put far more miles on bicycles than cars, as I’ve almost always had a daily bicycle commute to work. Sadly I no longer have a situation where bicycle commuting is possible, and miss it.
Yeah, I am about your age, and it is taboo in my work and social circle to even drive a sports car- I can tell most people I know see it as ostentatious, which I am annoyed by since I bought it for less than 1/10th the price of what most of them drive, and I find it fun, I don't care to impress anyone.
I do have a wife, not planning on more kids. I'm a bit of a car nerd and have a bunch of older cars I maintain myself- including several that fit the whole family- all of them together costing less than a newer economy car. There are plenty of large cars that are still fun to drive. A Porsche Cayenne/VW Touareg/Audi Q7 can tow as much as a full sized truck, seat 5 in comfort, offroad as well as almost anything, and post sports car worthy track lap times- and you can get a nice one for 5-10 grand on Craigslist nowadays.
There are some fun weird vans. I've always loved the Toyota HiAce, Mitsubishi Delica, and other strange Japanese minvans with weird features like built in karaoke machines, beverage coolers, tiny diesel engines, and real truck 4x4 systems. Also love the old VW vanagons.
They used to run (tongue in cheek) ads for the Boxster with the slogan "The more kids you have, the more practical it becomes" and that it fits "Two child seats. Up front." There's some truth to that- if you have a large family you will likely have multiple cars, it can still make sense for one of them to just take two people for 1 on 1 activities.
I tow with my mk4 tdi all the time, it’s incredibly handy. A lot of towing is bulky stuff that’s not necessarily heavy. There’s still a time and place for a truck, or a full-size truck, but not for everyone.
Haha... weirdly, I've also done a ton of towing with MKIV ALH TDIs. They're absolutely excellent vehicles for towing, and hardly use any fuel while doing so. Sometimes it gets a lot of unwanted attention - especially at a boat ramp, because Americans don't expect cars to be able to tow like that.
When I was in Ireland for work, I saw that a huge fraction of the farmers use MKIV TDIs for their farm work vehicles- they're all over the place pulling huge trailers full of livestock and hay, and still using half the fuel of most cars that are unloaded.
I assure you there is no bait- it’s an example of things that would make an everyday chore fun to me, and needs no justification. I would suggest you do what would make it fun to you.
I’m an outlier here but I especially prefer to drive a manual transmission sports car with good handling and lots of driver/road feedback in heavy traffic- as it’s a lot more engaging and easier to stay focused and not bored. I’ve heard the same from others with ADHD. The visibility and maneuverability is also helpful for avoiding potholes and other drivers mistakes. I’d still have a ton of fun driving even a Prius on a real track- but if driving through a crowded city I especially want a convertible sports car.
Not the OP. At the end of the day it’s just taste, right?
I use Linux, EMacs with vim keybindings and a dark color palette. Coding this way makes me feel good, I like the aesthetics. If they tried to force me to use Windows, and an IDE with a light color palette, I’d seriously consider quitting. It’s totally irrational, but it is what it is :D
The Boxster is mid-engined so there is no back seat, but a usable trunk at each end. The front trunk is takes up the entire space of a normal engine bay, and is surprisingly massive for how small the car is, because it is very deep.
Overall the Boxster is a surprisingly practical car- it was very cheap (cheaper than an old Prius of the same age) but now appreciating in value with age, can use a 3+ carpool lane with 2 people, is tiny so easy to park anywhere, and it is actually very reliable and low maintenance.
After 15 years of owning a Prius, I recently traded it in for a hybrid Toyota RAV4. I love the hybrid technology.
For me, the hybrid is fun to drive. I've never experienced any unresponsive inputs or lack of feedback in performance. The fun comes in at trying to keep the gas engine off as much as possible -- without going becoming a hypermiler and irritating other drivers -- both in city and long distance driving.
Hypermiling can be fun. I’ve also enjoyed a sort of anti-hypermiling: basically configuring and tuning a car such that it can be driven hard and still return amazing fuel economy. I’ve managed to configure a few small diesel vehicles like the VW TDIs such that they still get Prius level 50+ mpg when driven nearly flat out.
To be fair, you are contrasting an econobox with one of the all-time great driver’s cars :) I bet I have enough fingers to count cars more fun to drive than a Boxster.
I do agree about the Prius, though. It feels like driving a dishwasher.
I don’t the comparison with a sports car is particular fair.
I regularly drive both a 2011 Prius and a 2023 BMW X1 “mild hybrid”, I’ve also test driven an iX1 electric and X3 “real” hybrid recently (all practical family cars).
In order of increasing accelerator-input-to-actually-moving (at low speed) delay:
iX1 electric (best)
Prius
X3 hybrid
X1 mild hybrid (worst, dangerously bad)
That is to say, every time I get into the 14 year old Prius I think “wow this is nippy” after having driven the 2 year old X1, which we’ve nicknamed “the lag wagon”.
Toyota really nailed the driving ergonomics of the gen2 Prius, given the constraints. Yes, it’s a slow to accelerate at high speeds, but it’s still really nice drive around town.
Yes, a range extender EV like the BMW i3 REx is technically a series hybrid, but it is designed to operate most of the time on electricity only and be plugged in to charge- with a large EV size battery and a very small lightweight moped engine in the extender.
The range extender basically gives you protection from range anxiety, but isn't used at all in normal use of the vehicle. On the i3, it only starts the engine when the battery is nearly empty, but some people do software mods to be able to use the vehicle as a true series hybrid, and run the engine continuously for doing long distance freeway driving without stopping to charge.
>I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Don't forget the Mazda CX-50 Hybrid that was just released. Using the Toyota Hybrid from the RAV4 with the elegance and beauty of Mazda design.
The non-hybrid version of the CX-50 is rated for quite good fuel economy. I encourage you to do the math on your own and check my results: it is unlikely that a buyer would ever save money by getting the hybrid option considering that they will likely keep it for no more than 7 years and that the non-hybrid will have larger discounts than the hybrid.
For the reason you stated in the last paragraph I eventually opted against getting a Hyundai Ioniq in favour of a Toyota.
The Hyundai felt like driving a regular automatic, so it would occasionally lunge awkwardly and spin the engine in situations where Toyotas switch to EV mode.
Sure it had better fuel economy, but I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input or make noise when it shouldn't.
> I can't stand having a car not react immediately to my input
I'm spoiled from years of Priuses now, and driving gas cars, even fancy and expensive ones, feels bizarrely primitive. The lag between the pedal and the response, and the complex relationship between the input and the response, feels antiquated and arcane.
A while ago I rented a regular car and what bugged me was all the additional vibration associated with parts grinding and rolling against each other.
Also at least once I almost went "woah, horsie" as the car lunged forward because I tapped the accelerator a moment after it shifted to a lower gear without me noticing.
It used to be even worse. I had an opportunity to drive a 2005 BMW 7 series in a city where the speed limit was 30km/h. Unfortunately the gearbox was from a time way before traffic calming etc. went mainstream, so it couldn't decide which gear to pick. I ended up switching to manual gear selection mode.
I had a loaner Ford Bronco Sport when I was having some maintenance on my hybrid. It had a 8 speed transmission and a turbo. Going from the super smooth eCTV to a vehicle that would jerk from shift changes/turbo when you just thought about touching the gas pedal has has put me off buying a vehicle with a normal transmission
To be fair, it did take some time for me to get used to how a hybrid sounds. It’s fine when not driving aggressively. When you floor it though, it does feel weird when the engine jumps to the highest safe revs and stays there. That’s a small price to pay for reliability and smooth power delivery though.
I actually prefer that over the usual revs going up and down depending on speed. I'm not American so my default before hybrids was driving stick. Never liked this steampunk-esque drama of moving from a standstill in such a car
Anyway revs do go up over a certain speed, but you need to be on the Autobahn to legally test it.
Not sure exactly what you mean. As in, hybrids don’t have a CVT transmission, one with belts and the thing that changes diameter to achieve variability. Haven’t had one, but heard only bad things about those.
But yes, in that the power transmission is variable (e-CVT, right?), and that sounds a bit weird. You’ve spent so much time hearing how the engine gets louder with acceleration that it feels weird when the engine behaves slightly differently.
But again, that doesn’t bother me enough to buy a less reliable system.
Yeah I meant e-CVT. We actually own a highlander hybrid with e-CVT.
Actually every vehicle I've driven was CVT/e-CVT. 14 Corolla, 18 RAV4, 21 Highlander hybrid and 24 Integra. All super reliable. I'd still say CVT bothers me and I love it every time I get to rent a vehicle with traditional automatic.
My ICE CVT is like that, and hybrid systems behave sort of like CVTs.
The computer has an idea of "At this low RPM the engine is most efficient, at this high RPM it produces maximum horsepower". So if you floor it, the computer in either a CVT or a hybrid will bring the engine to full power and it will just sit there as the car accelerates.
The engine is getting loaded up and putting out more torque, and the throttle is opening, but it isn't really revving. In mine it does slowly climb from maybe 4,000 to 5,000 RPM, but it doesn't do the "rrrrRRRRRR... rrrrrrrRRRRR..." like a transmission with fixed gear ratios.
Looks like a series hybrid with a clutch that bypasses the generator for a high-efficiency overdrive gear. It's simpler than the planetary gear system in a Prius, but they must have made the drive motor (equivalent to MG2 in Prius diagrams) bigger if they never combine power from both MG2 and the ICE. Or, that's not shown in the diagram.
Not a challenge, but a plea: where's your source(s) for this? I'm about where you were, but would love to know more about the internals so I can make an informed choice when my current (ICE) car dies.
The wikipedia page is quite in depth [0] but is quite dense and took me a few goes to understand. They're fascinating to understand, and they really are mechanically simpler than a standard ICE + gearbox drive line. I got nerd sniped one day figuring out how my Toyota Crown "gearbox" worked only to discover it doesn't really have one. They don't even have a real neutral gear, the wheels are always mechanically linked to the engine.
They require much more active computer control to work though so they aren't logically simpler in my opinion, but mechanical simplicity is what makes the biggest difference.
There are certainly better more approachable sources though so I leave this as an option as the info is there, but can take a moment to understand.
The way I think of it comes from the old ME degree I got. You can analyze assemblies by the number of degrees of freedom. Three degrees of freedom, like three linkages pinned at the corners is a triangle and the relative positions of each element are fixed.
Four axis, like a square pinned at the corners if you know the relative position of two elements you know the position of the others. This is the basis for most traditional machines.
Five axis is floppy. And usually avoided traditionally.
The synergy drive is a five axis machine mechanically. But has two electric motor generators. By varying the speed of the motors you can control the gear ratio of the mechanical path. Since the motor speeds are indignantly variable so is the mechanical path. You end up with continuously variable transmission with a mechanical power path and an electric one in parallel. And it doesn't suck like pure mechanical ones.
I’m with you in general. Though, with the amount of electronics and “computer-complexity” that modern ICE cars have, I’m not sure there’s a meaningful difference!
That's really good, I watched one of their older videos to understand what I was getting into before I bought a Toyota a few years back. For those reading, the video is from Weber State University, they have a series of hourish long detailed videos on various automotive components including different versions of the Toyota electric transaxle and rear electric drive unit (mechanically separate but present in the AWD vehicles).
My takeaway was the same as some of the other posters here, the system is an engineering tour de force. Simpler than the gas version, proven reliability, and efficiency not too far off the theoretical limit of gas-burning drive trains.
This video cleared up my confusion and corrected my misconceptions, giving me enough knowledge to hold a one-hour discussion with an actual Toyota mechanic.
Also, YouTube helps. Search for “Power Split Device” or “e-CVT”.
Regarding other hybrid tech, it’s a bit of a crapshoot. I basically use ChatGPT with search enabled to have sources, and then ask how the system works. It’s never in the marketing materials, I guess most don’t care.
Respectfully, why are you asking for sources on an already high effort subjective post instead of verifying the info yourself? Wikipedia is a great place to start with car spec stuff.
Because when I ask questions like that in this forum, I get great answers (as you've seen). And, other visitors with the same interests can benefit from those answers.
I had an Accord hybrid and it did not have a transmission at all. There was a clutch and a single gear, which engaged over about 45 mph. Otherwise, the vehicle was propelled by an electric motor. The design, as far as I know, is significantly different than what Toyota uses. Having no transmission plus very little brake wear due to regen breaking felt like a good tradeoff.
Can't agree more, I can't understand why any car person would not be excited about THS II system anymore ever since its executive summary finally clicked, other than because that Prius as a product used to be so badly designed until Tesla started seriously threatening Toyota.
If only Toyota made bunch of toy models for THS and built couple 2-door hybrids so that more people would get it. I suppose it's a case of innovator's dilemma, but it's so unfortunate.
Naive question: aren't belts lower maintenance than chains, and don't let last longer? Why doesn't a engine with a chain drive require equal or more replacements?
Amusingly, my 1995 Saturn had a timing chain, and the chain skipped a tooth on its last day, at roughly 60k miles. Now, there wasn't necessarily anything wrong with the chain per se but it was the end of a sequence of failures involving the engine design.
On all of our other cars (Toyota), the belts needed to be serviced at X miles, but it was actually a cheap and quick procedure.
Ford and a few other makers have been using oil-immersed timing belts lately. They quite reliably fail after the car's warranty is up but well before the rest of the car is junk.
I agree, they are a disaster. However, I have heard people argue that Honda and other manufacturers have been using oil emersed belts for decades.
After 2017 Ford started using belts to drive the oil pump in F-150 engines (and possibly other Ecoboost engines). I have seen 100k teardowns of failed engines and the belt is not looking good at that point. If the belt breaks the engine is toast by the time the operator realizes what is going on.
Umm.. No and no. Belts need to be changed at some service interval, usually 100k SI units. If you don’t do it, a ripped belt wreaks havoc on the engine. Chains are typically installed for the life of the engine, and need to be changed only if it’s a problem.
A caveat though. I used to have a Škoda Fabia with a chain drive, and I did end up changing it, as it started making the tell-tale sound when stop-go.
In the context of hybrids though, I fully expect that chain to last the lifetime of the engine. The engine is under significantly less load than in a traditional ICE, so less stress on the chain. Also, for 100k mileage, the motor-hours that the engine has worked are less than in an ICE due to the engine regularly being off.
My Land Cruiser has a timing belt. I replace it every 90k miles per Toyota's specifications. My Tundra has the same engine, except that it has a timing chain. I've never bothered to replace the timing chain.
A timing chain is preferable as long as it isn't something like a Jaguar/Land Rover. The chain in those doesn't matter because they use plastic tensioners that eventually become brittle at crack/fail.
Chains can stretch, weigh more and make noise. This is why belts are used, in addition to being a space saver. The ultimate in reliability are gear drives. Those truly never wear out or need replaced (found in nearly any diesel engine).
Chains were very common in American cars and trucks for decades and they did need replaced after 150k-200k miles. I replaced the one in my 1993 Ford 5.0 at about 150k hard miles and it made a dramatic difference in performance (solved knocking/preignition on hills).
These days, there are some engines with (oil immersed) belts, but that's for fuel efficiency, not longevity. Chains last longer, typically, although I used to have a 97 Honda VFR that had neither. They started with chains in earlier models but had reliability issues so switched to straight cut gears. Man I miss the way those things sounded -- like a supercharger whine. Amazing
I was also worried about my wrong perception of hybrids being too complex. I recommend people to check on how e-CVT transmissions work, they are quite amazing and simple.
I also have now an hybrid Corolla (the station wagon version the US does not get. Because we all now Station wagons are the superior form of car.)
I used to drive a Prius until the hybrid battery system died, and the quote to replace it was a significant fraction of the value of the entire vehicle. I’ve driven ICE ever since.
My goal is usually to drive my vehicle all the way into the ground, and I guess that’s what happened to my Prius except it happened around if not before 150,000 miles.
I have a Prius that's at 100k right now. Repairing the battery is within my abilities but I'm concerned that if one or two cells fail, more will be right behind it.
Knew a dude that was asked several grands for replacing his hybrid Yaris batteries. He couldn't afford it, so he drove everywhere with the old battery. Because of the extra weight, he ended up consuming more fuel than the purely ICE Yaris.
That shouldn’t work. In a Toyota hybrid it’s the electric motor that effectively starts driving, and is also responsible for starting the ICE. So the car doesn’t really work with the drive battery not working.
There is only one factory, and it also makes the Highlander, Grand Highlander, and Lexus TX. The Sienna would need to become a lot more profitable for Toyota to reduce production of the other 3 to make room for more Siennas.
They could raise the price if they wanted it to be more profitable! Dealers already exploit the long wait list to do so in a way that doesn’t pass through to Toyota.
I’m in a large metro area; when I go to the Toyota website and look at inventory within 20 miles, I see 1 Sienna that is not in transit and not sale pending. That’s across 9 dealerships! By contrast, for the new Land Cruiser I am seeing 31 vehicles that are not in transit and not sale pending. On dealer lots. Most of them have $3k+ discounts listed! 12 Corolla hybrids; 24 Camrys. 87 Tacomas!!!
I have no idea what Toyota’s strategy with the Sienna is.
I would not call a CVT "not a gearbox". Were Audis equipped with their multitronic option (not in any way related to hybrid or BEV) "cars without a gearbox"?
A traditional CVT is a different beast. Prius is more accurately described as having a power-split gearbox that can dynamically split the power between the gasoline engine and the electric motor.
Yeah, I’d say “not a gearbox”. A gearbox to me is something where there are actual gears engaging and disengaging leading to wear and tear. Doesn’t matter what kind of fancy electronics are then used to hide the mechanical operation from me.
A mechanical CVT with belts and pulleys with changing diameters is even worse.
What the hybrids (e-CVT ones) have though is basically a planetary gear set, where the gears are put together at the factory, and stay there for the life of the car.
To me that’s not a gearbox. At least not in the traditional sense. Transmission sure.
To me the key element is that it can run different transmission ratios: wether that's in discrete steps or a continuous ramp, that's an implementation detail. BEV (most of them) don't have that, the Prius has. When I read GP post my (surprised) impression from the "no gearbox" claim was that the Prius started as a serial hybrid. (it did not)
So the relationship between engine RPM and wheel RPM is always fixed, only torque split is varied, right? I think that's around where some confusions are coming from.
But that’s a good thing. I own a Toyota Corolla hybrid myself, and hybrids are one of those things that I can say I’ve completely changed my mind about. I used to dislike the idea of hybrids, because I assumed that the overall system complexity must be higher than either an ICE, or an EV. And I’m a sucker for simple systems, so I thought it’s either EV, or nothing.
Then I looked into how hybrids work. Specifically Toyota hybrids. And came away totally amazed. It’s an amazing system, and much simpler than a traditional ICE car. It doesn’t really have a gearbox, or a clutch, or a starter. The engine is a normal atmospheric engine, so no turbines, overcompression, and the issues that come with it. Furthermore, the engine is typically configured to use the Atkinson cycle, which puts less stress on it. And, the engine has a chain drive, so no belts to change, and by design gets stressed a lot less than in a traditional ICE, because the stop-start load is carried by the electric motor. Also, it can’t really have trouble starting in cold weather, much like an EV. All of that boils down to crazy reliability.
I’m at a point where if I’m looking for a car that uses fuel, it’s only cars that use the Toyota hybrid tech (or similar) that I’m looking at. At the moment it’s just Toyota, Lexus, most Ford hybrids (but not all).
Other companies have hybrids that are liable to my original concerns about massively increased complexity. As an example, VW hybrids have an electric motor within their DSG gearbox. So you have all the complexity of their modern ICEs (turbines, DSG, whatnot) plus additional hybrid related complexity.